1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

HAkentt
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:53 am
Location: Grossdeutchland

1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

Postby HAkentt » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:04 pm

Very nice, clean, cheap and easy way to run Direct Ignition on Classic Saab 900 with 16 valve engine is to use MS2 with extra code. Am going to explain here how to do it easy, clean and on the budget and I can help other members here. Don't listen to KeithG, he just complicated things with his home made cam sensor and CNC machine milled 36-1 trigger wheel on flywheel, in my opinion that is crazy and unpractical. Reading his web site he has no clue how Saab DI cassette works. Guys at saabcentral and saablink are clueless too.
What am using is coils within the Saab DI cassette, running in semi sequential coil over plug system, that means two coils spark at the same time, yes it is wasted. But listening to these guys at saabcentral and saablink makes me laugh. Some say DI cassettes go bad and DI cassetes this and that and that they can't take too much wasted spark bla bla bla. They are totaly clueless as how the cassette works. These cassettes do go bad but coils never go bad. What goes bad is the ION sensing sensor but that effects Saab factory Ecus but not MS2. We can use the coils within the cassette and there is nothing going to happen to coils unless you run too much dwell, coils can last forever in wasted mode. In wasted mode spark plugs take a beating because they spark two times instead of one, but who cares, you run performance engine anyway you should change spark plugs often anyway.

Am controling fuel and ignition and using code Extra 2.0.1, using modded EZK crank hall sensor and modded trigger wheel 4-1, using coils within saab DI cassette, 93 9000T lucas 36lb injectors, 93 9000 air temp sensor, AEM wideband UEGO guage controler.

http://www.saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18216

Image

Image

Image

Image

MS2 is so much better than stock management.

Here is the main pulley from 2.1L saab 900, it is just basic trigger, triggers two times per revolution unmodded.

Image

Here is the same trigger wheel but modded, one extra window added the same size as other ones that comes after trigger #1, so this wheel will have 3 triggers at falling edge with 4th trigger missing, A 4-1 crank trigger. Thats all you need to mod to run semi-cop on a saab! pritty easy and cheap haa?

Image
Last edited by HAkentt on Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

HAkentt
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:53 am
Location: Grossdeutchland

Re: Raul's 89 Saab SPG running with MS2

Postby HAkentt » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:18 pm

Running MS2 V3 with extra code 2.0.1, 4-1 crank wheel, direct ignition semi COP,

Watch video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yf6IfGtH_8

dissinformation from KeithG's website:
2007, Sep 4
New update. I have been running MS2/E for a few months. The 'dwell' scheme required to drive a DI cassette is coded into the MS2/E code base. In the dwell type box, it is called 'time after Spark'. It needs to be set to 1.0ms or more. If you are running Wasted spark, 0.9 to 1.0 should be fine. If you are running COP, run as much as you can. I run 1.6ms. Keep in mind the requirement for the 2.5ms between discharges of the capacitor and the maximum amount of time available between firings. In Wasted Spark mode, it will fire 2x as often as in COP mode. This is usually not a problem until you get to substantial RPMs. You will feel it misfire if you exceed the required charge time.


The 'dwell' scheme required to drive a DI cassette is coded into the MS2/E code base. All DI cassette is 4 coils and 3 sensors that have nothing to do with those coils, you got two ion sensors that listen to the coils like osciloscope and you got one engine knock sensor. Then you got 4 coils that use same 12 volt power wire and have each individual negative coil leads output, and those are the leads that MS2 will trigger, so basicly all it is being used is 4 coils. This mith that cassette is something special is your dissinformation. So yes 'dwell' scheme is coded in MS2/E to run 4 coils in wasted spark mode. Do to the fact that these coils are located directly over spark plug it is called Coil Over Plug run in semi sequential or wasted mode. So yes keith you are wrong, MS2 code runs a scheme to run 4 coils and not to run DI cassette myth.

In the dwell type box, it is called 'time after Spark'. It needs to be set to 1.0ms or more. If you are running Wasted spark, 0.9 to 1.0 should be fine. If you are running COP, run as much as you can. I run 1.6ms. Keep in mind the requirement for the 2.5ms between discharges of the capacitor and the maximum amount of time available between firings. In Wasted Spark mode, it will fire 2x as often as in COP mode. This is usually not a problem until you get to substantial RPMs. You will feel it misfire if you exceed the required charge time. This is totaly wrong information. You don't have to do any of that. All you need to do is select dwell setting "charge at trigger" and thats it, no need to be entering any dwell values. Am running like this all the way to 7000 rpm and 20 psi of boost, no miss, just smooth hard pull.

To drive the DI cassette, I increased the current by changing all output transistor s to 2n2222 (substitute these instead of the 2n3904s that are in the kit) and changed the base resistor from 1k to 470 ohm. Then I soldered a wire from the top leg of the LED to the trigger pin on the DI. You do also need to build an extra output circuit exactly like this in the proto area for the 4th spark output.


People this is total dissinformation too, you don't have to do any of this. "to drive the DI cassette, again the cassette myth, all it is used there is 4 coils, thats all.

HAkentt
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:53 am
Location: Grossdeutchland

Re: 1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

Postby HAkentt » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:32 am

This is my exact setup:

http://www.ljbk.dk/saab/ms/DIogMS.gif

Today I checked the timing again and timing is spot on, it does not flactuate like the timing that you get out of stock distributor. 4-1 wheel defenetly works great with MS2 and 4 coils over plugs in wasted mode. Nice, clean and reliable install, easy and cheap.

Image

slash
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:39 pm

Re: 1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

Postby slash » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:49 pm

Dear,
Nice modification !
Concerning your wheel modification, the trigger's lenght must be the same but the position is it important ?
Is it easy to configure the EZK sensor in the MS II ?

Best regard

TheAlien
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 5:48 pm

Re: 1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

Postby TheAlien » Mon May 25, 2009 5:56 pm

What do you use to trigger the coils in the DI-Cassette ? (I am installing MS in my classic 1991 Saab 900 Turbo atm)

HAkentt
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:53 am
Location: Grossdeutchland

Re: 1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

Postby HAkentt » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:32 pm

MS2 V3, with extra 2.01 code, using dual coil driver to run the cassette in COP wasted mode. Basicly same as any other MS2 mod for wasted spark.

Keithg
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:15 am
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Contact:

Re: 1989 Saab 900 SPG with MS2extra direct ignition

Postby Keithg » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:46 pm

I would appreciate a bit of respect, here. Calling me a spreader of disinformation is a bit harsh. I only posted what I had read and reported what I learned in my experimentation in getting this running. I have been running it for over 5 years, so I hope I have learned something along the way.

A couple of points:
    1) The reason that 'charge at trigger' works with the DI is due to the waveform created. This will work for the 4-1 trigger wheel you are using, but will not with a 36-1 (like I am using) or a 60-2 due to how that particular feature generates its trigger waveform.
    2) The DI cassette is absolutely not just 4 coils mounted to a plate. This is documented around the web. For a more detailed read, you may want to refer to the T5/T7 suite documentation in this PDF http://trionic.mobixs.eu/Trionic%205.pdf. What I posted back in '05 agrees pretty much word for word with what is in this documentation.
    3) I cannot run 'charge at trigger' with my 36-1 wheel so cannot comment on how well or poorly a DI cassette will run in wasted spark mode with this trigger scheme. From a read of the documentation above, it would seem that it cannot have the same spark energy firing 2 plugs as it does firing sequentially.
    4) In my experiments in running the DI cassette here on my car as well as another list member running it on his, it does sink more current to run it in wasted spark mode (look at the trigger trace on a scope and measure how close to 0V it is able to pull down the trigger lead with a 2n2904 versus a 2n2222). FWIW, the engine runs better (less misfire) with a T7 cassette in W/S mode than a T5 cassette, but the engine still does not perform as well as running the DI cassette in sequential mode or even compared with running the OEM stock ignition (single coil, wires and plugs with MS controlling dwell). That is my experience as well as the other list member I am referring to.

I am always willing to experiment and discuss these issues. I think you will find I am pretty reasonable and willing to discuss any of it. To me it sounds like you have been reading Raul's angry posts...

KeithG


Return to “Volvo, Saab”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests