Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

phj420
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Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by phj420 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:29 pm

6 months ago I decided to upgrade the engine in my rail.... It has really become a monster.

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winter rail habitat

I want to thank Glen Urban. This is truely his creation. He has worked his bum off on this project! 8)
I started with a 2165cc 94x78 street motor with a hot cam (Engle 125) Dual Weber 40s, dual springs, ported and polished heads, a Demello counter weighted stroker crank (welded) stock ignition with mechanical adv distributor, 3 puck and 2300lb plate. This motor came out of my beetle which was unfortunately not driven very much due to the fear of scratching it.

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the old bug :(

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The 2165cc engine in the bug (this is the only good picture that I have of it)

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The 2165cc in the Rail


Now this engine was really not the best thing for off road use. The cam and heads gave me a lack of low end, and the carburetors made it impossible to drive over rough terrain. The clutch also made it very difficult to drive. I sold the engine to a local Karmann Ghia owner and started from scratch.

I decided to build a 2108 turbo.

The specs include:
Full circle 76mm crank
94mm Mahle Pistons/cylinders
Balanced stock rods with new bushing
Low Bugget lifters
Chromoly push rods
Grant rings
Webcam grind 86 cam
Stock lifters on the exhausts and hi ratios on the intakes
Kennedy stage II and a CB hybrid disc

Also includes:
EDIS4
Innovate LC-1 WB O2 sensor
Garrett t3 50trim with .48 Turbine housing


Custom heads with relocated spark plug holes, ported and polished with a .050 step bored shallow of the original deck surface (that allows us to get a 0 deck) 38x34 valves 63cc combustion chambers not including the step. We got 8:1 compression

Case mods include:
Sand seal
Full flow oil filter
Clearance for rods/crank
Line bore
Bored for 94mm


I originally wanted to use a late model beetle fuel injection manifold (such as a '93 Mexican air cooled beetle) and I couldn't find one anywhere. Eventually I found a source out of Mexico City. I took some close up pics of it so that those people who are thinking about going this route can know what you are getting into.
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You can see from the above pictures that this is a really nice setup if you can get it to work.
If you are interested in buying one drop me a line.


I found that the length and diameter is perfect for most air cooled engines under 1914cc. The inside diameter of the runners is 25mm. I was looking for something more like 28mm so I sold the Mexican manifold and began building my own. If you can use this setup, then it is perfect! I have not seen anyone selling an independent runner system like this and it makes all the difference in the world as far as low end torque and drivability is concerned. It is very similar to late model type 3 setups, but is designed for a type 1! You should also note the clearanced alternator stand. This was changed by VW for all of their late model beetles. You need to have one if you are running this runner setup.

Our Plenum fabrication was very in depth. We built the plenum itself out of steel, and we made it a little bit smaller than the engine's displacement. The runners are made from mandrel steel that I got at an exhaust shop. We built a tool to turn out the end of the pipe where it meets the plenum, to provide a smooth transition. They looked identical to velocity stacks before they were welded to the plenum and ground down. I don’t have any pics of the inside of the box but you can imagine what it looks like.

We used type 3 end castings, and cut the runners out of them. They had to be bored out in order to fit our runners in them. They really match the head nicely, and my injectors fit with very minimal modification. The injector points right at the intake valve! I am using ford EV1 style injectors.

The fan shroud is a doghouse that has been modified severely. It has no heater ports, has been reshaped, and has been strengthened to hold the plenum.

I also had to fabricate my own fuel rails.

I used the summit racing fuel rail stock. It is basically just extruded aluminum. We used dummy injectors to locate the holes in the rail. We then machined the bosses into the aluminum. We cut threads into the ends and cut a bevel for the O ring seal. The fuel system has been tested at over 100PSI with no leaks. These turned out nice because they are held in two places and are solid. I built a hard line for the back of the engine, and I am running a Fram hpg1 fuel filter along with an earls pre-filter.

I had to have the fuel tank custom made. It is baffled with a sump, 2 6an bungs, and a fuel sender. Bill at Coyote gear really hooked me up and his tanks are the best value I could find. I sent him a cad file of what I wanted and it came out flawlessly. His website is http://www.coyote-gear.com

The injector selection was tough. Most of the injectors that I found were wide or dual spray pattern injectors. This is not optimal for a VW. I ended up going with narrow pattern 42lb ford ev1 injectors. The part number is M-9593-F302. They are worth every penny. One nice thing is that Ford lists the data on these, which includes open time, voltage correction; it even goes into detail about injector slope in lbs/s. I was worried about idle pulse width with such large injectors but it is not an issue with 2 squirts alternating.

I wanted to run 4 squirts alternating but that is kind of impossible to do with these injectors. 4/alternating would give you a very even idle. I did some research as to how VW did it and they inject 2/alternating and they have a bank setup on 1&4 and 3&2. I suppose they did this for a more balanced idle. You can run opposing as well 1&3 and 2&4 but I just did it like VW. It seems to idle a bit smoother this way. I also have my timing delay set to 50.

I purchased the standard EBay high pressure fuel pump and it died in two days. So I went to NAPA and bought a carter inline pump. The difference in quality is night and day. I am out 94 bucks on the other one but I guess R&D is expensive. My recommendation is that for things like EFI you get what you pay for. I have had problems with cheap parts not working and these problems have really slowed me down. I purchased a fuel pressure gauge from summit, the same $20 one that they talk about in the mega manual and it was reading low. I kept adjusting my fuel pressure until oil started leaking out of the gauge. I think that this is why the 1st pump died. I should have bought a better gauge too. You really shouldn’t skimp on your fuel system. All and all I fixed the problems I was having.

My IAT Sensor is the GM one recommended with an open element. NAPA

My CLT sensor is from CB performance. I called them and talked to Alex the FUELINJECTION technician. He gave me the skinny...

CB has had the sensor custom made to mimic a gm sensor but still fit in a VW cylinder head. I have the resistance table if anyone is interested. The real nice thing about this sensor is that it does not need a different bias resistor than the one that comes with MS.

I am running a junkyard EDIS4 with new plug wires. They are high resistance wires and are made for a 95 explorer. I just put VW ends on these wires. I bought a new VR sensor and made a custom bracket to make it fit.

If you have any problems getting a tach signal with EDIS, try changing the VR sensor wires! Its polarity matters and I had to hook up blue to grey and grey to blue. I know it goes against all logic, but I have heard of others having the same problems. I think that it may have to do with the fact that a VW spins the opposite direction of a Ford.

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My plugs are NGKB7HS
Type B
R stands for resistor (goes after B if running resistor plugs)
7 is the heat range (5 is normal for air-cooled, these are 2 steps colder)
H is the length (1/2" length)

I have done a lot of research on EDIS, and they say that you need to run resistance and I have it in the wire. It works fine for me. The non resistor plugs have not been a problem for me at all as far as noise is concerned.

I went with a ford Escort TB. It had the nicest bolt pattern. At 38mm it is a bit small if this engine were naturally aspirated, but it really gives it good low end response. I got a stepper adapter from Race proven motors and with some effort got it to fit the throttle body. It is the only Ford TB stepper motor adapter I could find in a reasonable price range, and it cost me $55. The housing was a little big, and the stepper pintle could not reach the seat. I shortened it and that helped. I also found that the holes are about a quarter of the size of the ones on a Ford PWM valve, so I bored them out. It still makes a terrible whistling sound at idle. Once I put the turbo on the sound went away.

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First off, I broke in the engine in Glen's car on Carburetors.
After about a week we put it in the rail.
I decided to get the car running and the VEs tuned in before putting the turbo on. I already had another try-y exhaust that I used on the other engine. I had some problems getting the thing started. After I put a real fuel pressure gauge on the regulator, and adjusting my Pressure, along with turning off all after start and warm up enrichments the engine came to life.

I tuned VE in really fast. I have a LC-1 wideband. It makes all of the difference in the world. I set up spark using some books I have lying around the house.
I copied a type 4 spark advance table. It is awesome. I have posted it on my website along with other goodies. You can download it here http://www.thejive.net/ms/ I will continue to post useful info on that site as I find it.

It runs really well with the type 4 advance map.

After getting the tune I put the turbo on.

The Turbo header was fabricated by Glen out of mandrel 16g tubing. it is a Try-Y configuration. We did this to keep the system as short as possible. It is tuned length and each length is the same total length is about 36"

The wastegate is a Tial 38mm and it dumps back before the muffler.

I have really done a lot of research and work to make sure that the turbo is sized appropritatly if you are thinking about turbocharging anything read maximum boostby Corky Bell and Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes. There are so many VW people and people in general that are trying to use turbos that are way to big for their engines. Take Mr. Kataro he keeps getting good results with a t3 but when he tries to use a larger turbo he is unsuccessful. He keeps calling it a small turbo, but dude, these are small engines. Turbo sizing is important!


check out these:

Some pics
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view from behind, note the plenum and shroud all powder coated

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view from top right, that is an AEM synthetic filter

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custom muffler. It is much quieter now. This is good because I want to avoid attention

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A view of the MS. You can also see the coolant surge tank, and oil cooler (further cooler) and intercooler cooler (nearest cooler)

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A custom electronics enclosure (VW people will like this)

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TADA!

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Here is a view of the intercooler turbo and BOV. I had a hell of a time finding a good water to air intercooler that fit well. The BOV was so annoying. It is an HKS that has been de-whistled. I will be adapting a filter to it very soon. You can see some fan shroud mods going on here as well.

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Gauges--I want to use LCDash and make it Waterproof, but I am out of money at the moment.....

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pedals. These are awesome... adj brake bias and hydraulic clutch.

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A view of the trigger wheel. I pulled it off of a Taurus. it has been powder coated, but I had to grind the coat off of the edges of the teeth because it was uneven. This will be touched up. The pulley behind it is a stock pulley with a large washer welded to it. This is where the 4 studs mount. The whole assembly was balanced after it was made.
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another view of the rear.

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a view of the fuel rails and the turbo drain.

I am planning on making a PCV system very soon so I haven’t powder coated the valve covers yet.
As far as the intercooler goes, I am using the FIDLE relay as a spare. It turns on a water pump and the fan when the temps get over 100 or if the map is over 130. I am at altitude so we are about 81kpa,

I have started tuning with the turbo and slowly turning up the boost, but it decided to snow on me. It was 70 degrees all last week! I guess that is Colorado for you.

After adding the Fuel injection this has become the smoothest best running VW I have ever owned. I am a Megasquirter for life. I am pushing 5lbs of boost right now with no problems. One crazy thing is that when you start it there is no accelerator pump, so you cant just pump the pedal. I will have to get over that. I have it to the point where it starts right up every time with no hesitation in the least.
I will add updates soon.

Wishlist:
ceramic coated exhaust
LCDASH or Megaview
msextra boost control
constant baro(i live in Colorado)
PCV system


please reply to this post with any questions and I would be happy to try and help you!
2108cc Turbo VW Sandrail
MSII, EDIS, Custom header, intake, fuel rails, plenum, H20 intercooler & more
Read my success story

Robert Spencer
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Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by Robert Spencer » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:53 am

HI,
Very nice rail. I have a 2276 in a Ghia that is running with my homebrewed FI. You state that you are using a CB CLT sensor. I am also using this and have found that the temp in MT reads 80 Deg when the engine is 40Deg. CB gave me these numbers for their sensor. 185 at 210 deg, 3400 at 70 deg, and 7500 at 40 deg. Are these the same as yours? This is making my IAC valve work wierd. Thanks.
Bob

phj420
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Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by phj420 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:20 am

Bob,
Thank you for the compliment. This is the fastest thing I have built to date.

CB gave me those same numbers, however, the ones that I entered into megatune were a little bit different. I measured the resistance of the sensor at three temperatures: at 65 degrees F i got 2333 ohms. At 35 degrees i got 3872 ohms, and at 198 degrees I got 274.5 ohms.

The 35 degree resistance was a little bit different than the values that CB gave me. I went with my actual resistance results in the end and I have found that the sensor is quite accurate.

Perhaps you should try and measure the sensor's resistance at different temperatures and post your findings here as well.

a guide to measuring the sensors resistance is here: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... lation.htm
2108cc Turbo VW Sandrail
MSII, EDIS, Custom header, intake, fuel rails, plenum, H20 intercooler & more
Read my success story

phj420
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:25 pm

Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by phj420 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:22 am

A thread has been started about this CB performance CHT sensor here:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=38 ... 32#p210732
2108cc Turbo VW Sandrail
MSII, EDIS, Custom header, intake, fuel rails, plenum, H20 intercooler & more
Read my success story

dinky
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by dinky » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:52 am

Hello phj420

"I am running a junkyard EDIS4 with new plug wires. They are high resistance wires and are made for a 95 explorer. I just put VW ends on these wires. I bought a new VR sensor and made a custom bracket to make it fit.

If you have any problems getting a tach signal with EDIS, try changing the VR sensor wires! Its polarity matters and I had to hook up blue to grey and grey to blue. I know it goes against all logic, but I have heard of others having the same problems. I think that it may have to do with the fact that a VW spins the opposite direction of a Ford."

two question about your hardware

did you have any other probleme with your sensor, like did you have to tune the R52 and R56 trim pot to adjuste the signal???

can it be possible that a weak bracket give us some trouble in the signal??? when we hold it by hand the signal is crital clear and the engine is reving like never before a vw engine rev .....

great job one your rail, have fun with it

Seb(www.dinkygarage.fr)

phj420
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Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:25 pm

Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by phj420 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:42 pm

-Dinky
I started a new thread on MSefi.com in regards to your EDIS problem. you can view my repsonse here:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=34766

It will get more responses and is better placed on MSEFI.com

thanks for the compliment on the sand rail.
2108cc Turbo VW Sandrail
MSII, EDIS, Custom header, intake, fuel rails, plenum, H20 intercooler & more
Read my success story

dinky
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by dinky » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:36 am

thanks for helping. can't wait to be one monday to work on it.......

phj420
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Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by phj420 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:48 pm

<<<<UPDATE>>>>

Well, I broke something.....

I was really pushing it yesterday and I was doing 60+ mph off road over some pretty rough terrain in a field near my house in Colorado. The engine has been running great! I have been tuning and pushing about 9 lbs of boost. I have it running very well, starting every time, idling nice, creating loads of power under boost, and getting relatively good gas mileage.

The entire time I have had some minor transmission problems, particularly with rough shifting. The 4th gear synchro is out and it doesnt shift particularly smooth.

I don't know what happened, but there was a crunch, and I couldn't shift anymore, and the transmission was stuck in second.

If I put it in reverse, it would grind in, but then It would shift again, although to shift I really had to force it, almost to the point of bending forks.

I think that I blew the transmission thrust bearing. This would cause everything to loose alignment during off road use, and reverse would help to shift everything back to normal for a moment. It is pretty normal for Bus transmissions to go this way.

well I knew it would happen, it was just a matter of when. :cry:

So I am going to pull the engine today and Install another transmission that I have lying around.

I have attached my MSQ if you guys want to check it out.

While I have the engine out, I am going to send the exhaust, turbine housing, intake pipe and valve covers to be powdercoated. I am also going to build the PCV breather that I have wanted to build for a while. I may also replace the head studs with chromoly ones. I have done some research and testing, but I have not found them to be much better than stock, so I am still on the fence about it.

-Anthony
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2108cc Turbo VW Sandrail
MSII, EDIS, Custom header, intake, fuel rails, plenum, H20 intercooler & more
Read my success story

dinky
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Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by dinky » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:24 am

sorry about your gear box dude

phj420
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Re: Turbo 2108cc VW sandrail with H20 intercooler, EDIS, MSII

Post by phj420 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:22 pm

<<<<UPDATE>>>>

I just finished the transmission replacement and man, what an improvement! Everyone should own one of these.

The new Transmission shifts great!
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a picture of the swap


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I had to take the CV adapters off of the current transmission and put them on to the new one because this rail has Porsche 930cvs which are stronger and have more travel than bus ones. This is a pic of the old transmission with them removed.

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A view of the backside of the engine (I like to think of it as a power unit) It is very easy to remove although there are parts of it like the intercooler and the oil cooler built into the car. You can see the Kennedy stage II pressure plate and the non greasy flywheel. I decided not to have the flywheel resurfaced, it is stock weight/ 8 doweled. I wanted to build this engine with lots of rotational momentum. I will post some pics of its internal parts.
2108cc Turbo VW Sandrail
MSII, EDIS, Custom header, intake, fuel rails, plenum, H20 intercooler & more
Read my success story

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