GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

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matt_gsxr
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Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:57 pm

GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

Post by matt_gsxr » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:14 pm

Hey there,

Just a few notes>

Squirting a GSXR1100 isn't too difficult. In mine it is in a car, but in a bike there wouldn't be any problem with fitting most of the stuff. The fuel pump would be quite different but its all very tractable.


Here is what I managed:
gsxr600 k1-k2-k3 throttle bodies, respaced in the usual fashion with the only challenge being the central throttle coupling that needs extending. Secondaries removed and holes filled with JB weld.

Air box is standard GSXR1100, but with the rubbers from the GSXR600

Air temperature sensor from GSXR600 and mounted in the airbox before the filter.

Fuel rail needs replacing. I used rossmachining stock and drilled carefully for the injectors and tapped the ends to block them off. Standard injectors (these are supposedly rated at 240cc/min, although I couldn't find a non-forum source for this).

Fuel pump is GSXR600 that I have mounted in the tank (underside with a bit of a sump). No filter between pump and fuel rail (there is none on the bike so why complicate). Pump is self regulating and includes a filter, no return fuel line. All nice and simple.

Water temperature sensor is mounted in the GSXR1100 themostat housing and replaces the fan switch. Intermotor part number 52730.


So that is all the hardware:

Electronics use a standard MS1 board.
Tacho is supplied using a pair of diodes one to each of the negative sides of the coil. A pull-up resistor (1k) is used to ensure a decent trigger. This works nicely.

Sparks are provided by Suzuki standard CDI.

MS Extra code 29y3, and easytherm was used for the non-standard temperature sensors.

LC-1 with Bosch O2 probe.

A few teething problems (flat battery, poor initial fueling, bad earthing on water temp sensor, and an upside-down AE sensor). But MegaTune and MegaLogViewer have been excellent. The autotune functions have given me a great table, and the car (460kg of it), is all a bit quick.
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SafetyFast
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Re: GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

Post by SafetyFast » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:39 pm

Does this throttle body have any secondaries? Was megasquirt able to control them?

Thanks,
Shareef

matt_gsxr
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Re: GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

Post by matt_gsxr » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:09 am

Sorry for the delay in replying. I will tag this page so I get e-mails.


Yes these throttle bodies did have secondaries, but I removed them and blocked the holes.

It seems to be fine without (this isn't just my experience).

These bodies are actually quite small (given the big ones on the gsxr1000, and massive ones on the zx10r). I believe the secondaries are there to manage flow velocity and deal with flow reversion and general low engine speed skuldugery. With small bodies then these sort of things shouldn't hurt as much as with big ones.

Matt

matt_gsxr
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Re: GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

Post by matt_gsxr » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:39 am

UPDATE:

I decided to get the MS1 running Extra controlling the spark. Not quite sure why beyond "its a mountain, lets climb it". Well there is one reason, the GSXR1100 runs carbs and a very simple ignitor. This unit doesn't have any inputs except from the trigger wheel, so basically it doesn't know about the throttle position which results in ignition timing that is retarded over optimal at small throttle openings. So, I would hope/expect to gain efficiency/performance when cruising, and also clean up the engine throughout the rev range.


Triggering:
Built an LM1815N circuit, which didn't work right. Then read loads of postings, and did the redesign (the one in the manual isn't the best here).

Trigger wheel:
I had a 36-1 wheel (from an old OMEX install) being sensed by the standard VR sensor. This seemed to work (once I had revised the LM1815 circuit). Started fine, but gave problems at 5500rpm. Totally reproducible and (I believe) due to the slight timing error that I see after the missing tooth. It started and idled very nicely with the 36-1.

Next I tried modifying the 4 tooth trigger wheel. The Suzuki wheel has 4 teeth but with on much longer (longer duration, not longer radius!) than the others. So, I ground off the long tooth, and cut a new slot in the wheel to put the first tooth at an appropriate position. It ran well on this wheel with none of the rev limit problems. The issue with this wheel was with starting. I had the fueling from the previous install, but it just didn't like the transition from cranking to running.

Finally, I took the 36-1 wheel and turned it into a 12-1 wheel. I put the slot at 280deg BTDC, this was for two reasons. Firstly it gives me a pair of teeth at 10deg BTDC, which I can use for the trigger return and hence the crank timing. Secondly, it means that the "slow" tooth is used to trigger cylinders 2 and 3. It is well known that the central cylinders on bike engines run hotter than the outers, don't know how true/relevant this is once the bike is in the car, but retarding the central two cylinders by 1deg can't be a bad thing. It starts well, it revs up (actually I wasn't sure of this as at 9kRPM it was making some nasty noises, but then I realised that I had set the rev limit at 9k, dohhh!). So far so good.

Driving the coils:
This was pretty straightforward. I bought a little daughter board (http://shop.diyefi.co.uk/index.php/modu ... d-mk2.html). I bolted it into the case instead of cutting out the LED panel, as I wanted to retain the LED's. I retained the standard (Dyna Green) coils, and run wasted spark.



Issues/problems:
Timing up the trigger wheel isn't easy on this engine. The toothed wheel is behind a cover on the engine, and the reason for the cover is that it is "wet" inside. I had a spare cover so cut that to leave a small hole at the top, which sort of does the job, but its not easy and is messy.

The timing light I had was a "clever" one, so allows the angle to be changed, but on wasted spark the angle on the gun is out by a factor of 2 (so 20deg advance on gun equals 10deg in real life), this is just because it sees 2 sparks per rev, and assumes the RPM is double what it is.

Setting up the timing. This is tough as I don't think that there are any tables out there for bike engines. The best I have found are "decompiled/hacked" tables from GSXR1000, and GSXR1300 ECU's. I may try to stimulate the stock ECU and see what advance it gives at different RPM, I should be able to do this with the soundcard output and an oscilloscope. An ideal job for the next wet weekend.


Matt

matt_gsxr
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Re: GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

Post by matt_gsxr » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:45 am

Here's a map (not that good necessarily, but if you want it then here it is).

If you want to use this, then this is completely at your risk (obviously),

Matt
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testastretta
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Re: GSXR1100WP in sylva phoenix kit car

Post by testastretta » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:35 am

matt_gsxr wrote:UPDATE:

I decided to get the MS1 running Extra controlling the spark. Not quite sure why beyond "its a mountain, lets climb it". Well there is one reason, the GSXR1100 runs carbs and a very simple ignitor. This unit doesn't have any inputs except from the trigger wheel, so basically it doesn't know about the throttle position which results in ignition timing that is retarded over optimal at small throttle openings. So, I would hope/expect to gain efficiency/performance when cruising, and also clean up the engine throughout the rev range.


Triggering:
Built an LM1815N circuit, which didn't work right. Then read loads of postings, and did the redesign (the one in the manual isn't the best here).

Trigger wheel:
I had a 36-1 wheel (from an old OMEX install) being sensed by the standard VR sensor. This seemed to work (once I had revised the LM1815 circuit). Started fine, but gave problems at 5500rpm. Totally reproducible and (I believe) due to the slight timing error that I see after the missing tooth. It started and idled very nicely with the 36-1.

Next I tried modifying the 4 tooth trigger wheel. The Suzuki wheel has 4 teeth but with on much longer (longer duration, not longer radius!) than the others. So, I ground off the long tooth, and cut a new slot in the wheel to put the first tooth at an appropriate position. It ran well on this wheel with none of the rev limit problems. The issue with this wheel was with starting. I had the fueling from the previous install, but it just didn't like the transition from cranking to running.

Finally, I took the 36-1 wheel and turned it into a 12-1 wheel. I put the slot at 280deg BTDC, this was for two reasons. Firstly it gives me a pair of teeth at 10deg BTDC, which I can use for the trigger return and hence the crank timing. Secondly, it means that the "slow" tooth is used to trigger cylinders 2 and 3. It is well known that the central cylinders on bike engines run hotter than the outers, don't know how true/relevant this is once the bike is in the car, but retarding the central two cylinders by 1deg can't be a bad thing. It starts well, it revs up (actually I wasn't sure of this as at 9kRPM it was making some nasty noises, but then I realised that I had set the rev limit at 9k, dohhh!). So far so good.

Driving the coils:
This was pretty straightforward. I bought a little daughter board (http://shop.diyefi.co.uk/index.php/modu ... d-mk2.html). I bolted it into the case instead of cutting out the LED panel, as I wanted to retain the LED's. I retained the standard (Dyna Green) coils, and run wasted spark.



Issues/problems:
Timing up the trigger wheel isn't easy on this engine. The toothed wheel is behind a cover on the engine, and the reason for the cover is that it is "wet" inside. I had a spare cover so cut that to leave a small hole at the top, which sort of does the job, but its not easy and is messy.

The timing light I had was a "clever" one, so allows the angle to be changed, but on wasted spark the angle on the gun is out by a factor of 2 (so 20deg advance on gun equals 10deg in real life), this is just because it sees 2 sparks per rev, and assumes the RPM is double what it is.

Setting up the timing. This is tough as I don't think that there are any tables out there for bike engines. The best I have found are "decompiled/hacked" tables from GSXR1000, and GSXR1300 ECU's. I may try to stimulate the stock ECU and see what advance it gives at different RPM, I should be able to do this with the soundcard output and an oscilloscope. An ideal job for the next wet weekend.


Matt
got pic of your trigger wheel setup mate? :shock:

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