1985 Ferrari 400i V12

markthepadrone
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1985 Ferrari 400i V12

Postby markthepadrone » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:30 am

I bought a 1985 Ferrari 400i to use as my daily driver. It had two 6 cylinder Bosch K-Jet systems running a V12, one for each bank.
I could not get the Bosch unit on the right side to work reliably so I removed the Bosch mechanical FI system and installed a MSII.

The engine had a head gasket failure which I believe was caused by a super lean mix on the right bank. After rebuilding the motor I installed the MS system. Here are some things I learned.

Parts:
1. MSII
2. Special GM fuel injectors from their spider assembly that fit in the thin holes made for the Bosch injectors.
3. Two Innovate LC-1 O2 sensors.
4. GM style IAT
5. Ford TPS
6. MSD 6A

Things I learned:
1. Trust the MS. If something is wrong, 99.999% of the time it will be a simple problem like wiring. Remember that the things your read on the forums are mostly written by people trying to get their MS system working for the first time. They are convinced that there is a problem with the design of the MS. They are wrong.

2. Think out the installation and develop a plan based on sub-systems. Install and TEST each sub system before moving on to the next. Something like an intermittent connection to a coolant sensor will drive you insane. Follow a process of design, install, and, test. Don't just wing it.

3. Minimize the use of connectors. Directly solder as many connections as possible.

4. If something is wrong, stop and think. You will be amazed at how easily you can make a stupid mistake.

5. A simple problem can cause a complicated result.

How I learned the things I learned:
1. I removed the weights from the dizzy and put an aluminum block in their place so that I could use the MS to control timing. It worked well until I reached around 3000 rpm because timing advance would allow the spark to jump from the rotor to the wrong cylinder.... Now, I have the weights reinstalled and simply use the MS to fine tune the timing. This was good for around two weeks of searching with an O-scope looking for noise.

2. I installed connectors in the circuits going to the injector banks. One of the connectors was intermittent.... A really tough problem to find. I found this problem by accident while trying to measure the injector opening time with an O-scope.

3. I didn't label the wires. One night I reversed the leads running from the O2 sensors so the right sensor was controlling the left bank.... I've never seen an exhaust system glow that bright! As one side went lean its O2 sensor would make the MS drive the other side rich, as that side went rich it would drive the other side lean. After down-loading a new msg, the problem would be solved for a little while. I was convinced that this was a firmware problem...

4. The car has two fuel pumps. One from each tank. While working one night I ran out of gas. Only on one side!

5. I ran my ground wire to the frame rather than the block.... Its funny to watch the coolant temperature reading ping-pong when you use the directionals, but only with the engine running. The one-wire electrical system in cars can be really confusing when you have a couple of loose grounds. Just as a note, in this car not all of the fuses are leading from +VDC. Some fuses are in the middle of circuits, so when you have a problem with the battery not holding a charge and you leave out a fuse to deal with it later the 'back feeding' can cause all sorts of strange problems. For example, I pulled the fuse for the trunk light. With it out, when you hit the switch for the fog lights, the interior lights come on.

6. I created a new msg file and burned it. The car started running like crap and overheating. In the new file I had set the Ignition trigger setting backwards causing the timing to be way retarded. Rather than check the timing, I was convinced that the cooling system was at fault....

The result of all this is that I now have a very nice running car. I can set target AFRs that make sense for how I want to drive. It starts instantly, and, runs smooth and strong.

The really sad part of the story:
I'm a systems integrator that builds huge control and monitoring systems. Based upon my twenty some odd years in the systems business, I thought I could just whip this thing together without a process. I've learned my lesson.

TheMonkey
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Posts: 1
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Re: 1985 Ferrari 400i V12

Postby TheMonkey » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:26 pm

very good post.

you forgot the pics though....

reamon308
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Re: 1985 Ferrari 400i V12

Postby reamon308 » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:56 pm

markthepadrone wrote:I bought a 1985 Ferrari 400i to use as my daily driver. It had two 6 cylinder Bosch K-Jet systems running a V12, one for each bank.
I could not get the Bosch unit on the right side to work reliably so I removed the Bosch mechanical FI system and installed a MSII.

The engine had a head gasket failure which I believe was caused by a super lean mix on the right bank. After rebuilding the motor I installed the MS system. Here are some things I learned.

Parts:
1. MSII
2. Special GM fuel injectors from their spider assembly that fit in the thin holes made for the Bosch injectors.
3. Two Innovate LC-1 O2 sensors.
4. GM style IAT
5. Ford TPS
6. MSD 6A

Things I learned:
1. Trust the MS. If something is wrong, 99.999% of the time it will be a simple problem like wiring. Remember that the things your read on the forums are mostly written by people trying to get their MS system working for the first time. They are convinced that there is a problem with the design of the MS. They are wrong.

2. Think out the installation and develop a plan based on sub-systems. Install and TEST each sub system before moving on to the next. Something like an intermittent connection to a coolant sensor will drive you insane. Follow a process of design, install, and, test. Don't just wing it.

3. Minimize the use of connectors. Directly solder as many connections as possible.

4. If something is wrong, stop and think. You will be amazed at how easily you can make a stupid mistake.

5. A simple problem can cause a complicated result.

How I learned the things I learned:
1. I removed the weights from the dizzy and put an aluminum block in their place so that I could use the MS to control timing. It worked well until I reached around 3000 rpm because timing advance would allow the spark to jump from the rotor to the wrong cylinder.... Now, I have the weights reinstalled and simply use the MS to fine tune the timing. This was good for around two weeks of searching with an O-scope looking for noise.

2. I installed connectors in the circuits going to the injector banks. One of the connectors was intermittent.... A really tough problem to find. I found this problem by accident while trying to measure the injector opening time with an O-scope.

3. I didn't label the wires. One night I reversed the leads running from the O2 sensors so the right sensor was controlling the left bank.... I've never seen an exhaust system glow that bright! As one side went lean its O2 sensor would make the MS drive the other side rich, as that side went rich it would drive the other side lean. After down-loading a new msg, the problem would be solved for a little while. I was convinced that this was a firmware problem...

4. The car has two fuel pumps. One from each tank. While working one night I ran out of gas. Only on one side!

5. I ran my ground wire to the frame rather than the block.... Its funny to watch the coolant temperature reading ping-pong when you use the directionals, but only with the engine running. The one-wire electrical system in cars can be really confusing when you have a couple of loose grounds. Just as a note, in this car not all of the fuses are leading from +VDC. Some fuses are in the middle of circuits, so when you have a problem with the battery not holding a charge and you leave out a fuse to deal with it later the 'back feeding' can cause all sorts of strange problems. For example, I pulled the fuse for the trunk light. With it out, when you hit the switch for the fog lights, the interior lights come on.

6. I created a new msg file and burned it. The car started running like crap and overheating. In the new file I had set the Ignition trigger setting backwards causing the timing to be way retarded. Rather than check the timing, I was convinced that the cooling system was at fault....

The result of all this is that I now have a very nice running car. I can set target AFRs that make sense for how I want to drive. It starts instantly, and, runs smooth and strong.

The really sad part of the story:
I'm a systems integrator that builds huge control and monitoring systems. Based upon my twenty some odd years in the systems business, I thought I could just whip this thing together without a process. I've learned my lesson.


Hi Mark, Thanks for a very nice read, so any chance of a little more detail, have you run spark as well and how, coil packs in wasted spark,or COP's, also how did you manage to get the Distributors locked or did you, also what MPG did you get as it must be a very good reason to the Carb version of that V12 engine as I know they just drank the stuff, I specialise in Ferraris so am hopeing to convert some to MS very soon, so any help appreciated, my website if I can help you is http://www.ferrarispares.co.uk Regards DM

oliversudden
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Re: 1985 Ferrari 400i V12

Postby oliversudden » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:15 am

Mark,
Do you have part numbers (or GM applications) for the injectors that you used?

oliversudden

oliversudden
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Re: 1985 Ferrari 400i V12

Postby oliversudden » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:08 pm

Does anyone know how I can get in touch with markthekpadrone (Mark?) who posted this EFI conversion for a Ferrari 400i in 2009?

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kholman
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Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:54 pm

Re: 1985 Ferrari 400i V12

Postby kholman » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:17 am

oliversudden wrote:Does anyone know how I can get in touch with markthekpadrone (Mark?) who posted this EFI conversion for a Ferrari 400i in 2009?

You might try sending a PM or an email using the links provided in his post. His preferences are set to allow other users to contact him. (This assumes his stated email is one he still monitors.)
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